Why Russia Invaded Ukraine
About the Producer
WHY RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE is an interview produced by THE NEW WORLD. In the Netherlands THE NEW WORLD is a well-known video-on-demand platform that publishes quality in-depth interviews with leading experts and opinionmakers from various disciplines that discuss the great developments in today’s societies. DocsOnline translates these interviews into English and transforms their transcripts into rich multi-media resources for further study.
WHY RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE, is the central question of this interview with former Russia correspondent Wierd Duk and conducted by philosopher Ad Verbrugge.
Wierd Duk is a Dutch historian, journalist and author. He specializes in history, culture and Russian and German politics. Duk is also an experienced commentator and opinion maker in radio and television programs.
Ad Verbrugge is a Dutch philosopher, well known for his shrewd analysis of modern society.
In this interview Ad Verbrugge and Wierd Duk explore the many questions related to Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine, thereby upsetting the world’s geopolitical balance. One of the questions raised in particular is why Russia’s invasion of Ukraine caught much of Europe by surprise despite the overwhelming presence of omens. The interview was conducted just five days after the invasion.
Table of Contents
Transcript
Hello.
-Thanks very much for finding the opportunity to speak with us in these busy times.
These are hectic times.
-Yes, certainly, but with your knowledge of Russia, you worked there for almost nine years.
Yes, nine years. In the nineties, during Yeltsin’s time and a short portion of Putin’s career, two years.
Given your expertise in the area, I thought it would be interesting to talk to you about what’s going on in Ukraine and take a step back.
-Let’s take a slightly wider field of reflection that might not be covered (in the media) as often. Perhaps it can shed light on what is going on. Let’s start with the current state of affairs.
Why The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine
Came As A Surprise
Yes, enormously.
-Yes?
Yes, I expected Putin to try and take the Donbas, so going further than those two self-proclaimed republics, Donetsk and Luhansk, but I didn’t expect him to massively attack the country from three or four sides and drop airborne forces in Kyiv.
I do blame myself for that. I…
-It was almost like a kind of blitzkrieg.
Yes, Russia is attempting a kind of blitzkrieg, and I blame myself that even though I have 20 years of Putin experience, I’ve reported on the Chechen war, so I know what Putin is capable of. Despite the invasion of Georgia in 2008 – which we might discuss later – I still thought with my Western perspective: “He’s not going to do it.” But that’s because we’re limited, even I am, by our Western perspective. Even with all of my Russia experience. While the Security services and the Americans were saying that a massive invasion was on its way, NATO assumed that as well because of American intelligence. And even then, I, as a civilian citizen and journalist, thought: “Yeah, that’s not going to happen”.
-even in Ukraine, right?
Yes. Even there, the government was taken by surprise, the citizens were surprised.
Wars preceding the invasion of the Ukraine
Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia engaged in several other satellite wars to conserve its influence in the region.
Why The Invasion Of Ukraine
Has Started A War Of Civilization
And that’s why it’s a war of civilization, in my opinion. I was watching the NOS news when I saw footage of people in subway tunnels in Kyiv that they are using as bomb shelters, the young generation, those are people just like your students, 20, 21 years old, they’re exactly the same. They could be studying here, or anywhere else.
They’re completely astonished by what’s happening. They’re thinking: “What in God’s name is happening?”
-It’s of an entirely different order, from a totally different time.
It’s a different planet. They live there, so they’ve been living with this threat over their heads for eight years. They know that there have been skirmishes in the East of the country. that the Donbas is a kind of anomaly in the country, that there’s a fight going on there, and even then they think, “But not Kyiv.” And if they’re that surprised, then I can understand that people in the West are surprised as well. Because what you see here is that the equivalent of Berlin or Paris or London being under fire, because Kyiv is a city similar to those, The largest part of people that live there are people just like them. It’s not a completely different civilization. It’s not a place that’s used to being at war, like for example in some places in Africa or otherwise. It’s a civilized, European city with European people.
-Yes, I had Dick Zandee here as a guest as well, not here, but upstairs and last week. When I look back at that now, he expressed the same idea, like most experts: “Well yes, there were some troops being assembled, but will they attack… ” I had the doubts back then. But yes, that was the general impression despite, like you mentioned, the forewarnings of intelligence agencies in the US. Does it indicate that we’ve become skeptical towards the United States, too? There were stories that there were other interests at play and that they were fanning the flames and that Biden was making it bigger than it was in order to give NATO more legitimacy again. There were all sorts of stories going around.
I think you notice that in this sense of astonishment in the West. It has opened a lot of eyes.
Making of an empire
The man allegedly behind the Russian apartment bombings
In 1999, just before the second Chechen War acclaimed director Jos de Putter made this impressive documentary protrait about Khozh-Ahmed Noukhaev, founder of the Chechen mafia and a prominent figure in Chechen politics. Allegedly he is also the man behind the Russian apartment bombings. The film provides a good inside look at Chechen culture and its drive for independence.
The Russian apartment bombings were a series of attacks that hit four apartment blocks in the Russian cities of Buynaksk, Moscow and Volgodonsk in September 1999, killing more than 300, injuring more than 1,000, and spreading a wave of fear across the country. The bombings, together with the Invasion of Dagestan, triggered the Second Chechen War. The handling of the crisis by Vladimir Putin, who was prime minister at the time, boosted his popularity greatly and helped him attain the presidency within a few months.
-You were there in ’92?
Yes, from ’92 onwards. I went to work there and I ended up in my first war, the Chechen war. I was a guest at a Chechen farm and Russian bombers were flying overhead, Russian fighter jets, and I was standing there with this family, and this young boy of around eight years old, as old as my son is now, he was holding a huge, almost sword-like knife in his hand. His grandfather had given it to him. And this boy, he saw the bombers flying overhead, he held his knife in the air and yelled ‘Allahu Akbar. And in Russian, “You pigs, we’ll kill you. So I thought: “Settle down kid, war isn’t for children,” but the men of the family, thought it was fantastic. They thought, “Well done, you’re already a fighter, a Chechen fighter.”
8 march, 2022
Washington Post publishes an independent telephone survey indicating that 58 percent of Russians support the invasion of Ukraine, and 23 percent oppose it.
-So the Russian are confused by the war too. But don’t you believe Ukrainians are different from Russians too, after all.
So he paid with his life.
-So that’s the history of that Nazism argument, and it wasn’t a small movement, either. It was quite substantial. There are still some neo-Nazis there, or groups that have an affinity to it.
Of course, that that’s what people in the West need to understand: why does Putin’s rhetoric work so well, especially with the older generations?
-It’s grandpa.
Grandpa fought against those fascists. fascists are in power in Kyiv now. Which, of course, is nonsense.
-It’s nonsense.
Of course. I mean, some openly Nazi-type people took part in the presidential elections, but they only received a very small percentage of the votes.
Winter on fire
Ukraine's fight for freedom
Winter on Fire is an observational documentary that portrays the events of the Revolution of Dignity (2013 – 2014) and shows how the civil rights movement turned into a revolution supported by millions of Ukrainians
Indeed, there is also the Azov Battalion that fought in 2014. So yes the 2004 Ukraine revolution was supported by some right-wing neo-nazi groups, but of course, these groups weren’t a dominant factor.
The Kremlin is pretending that it’s the dominant ideology. Well, with the older Russian generation, that strikes a chord. That was a brilliant move on the Kremlin’s part. They even take it a step further and say that those Nazis are committing genocide.
Yes they did. They were the fighters, the boys with the shaven heads and runes at least some of them.
The western media try to deny this or at least try to shove it under the carpet (because it doesnt fit the image of a clean fight for freedom and democracy). That’s stupid. You can deny it, but it’s simply right there. To understand Putin and his propaganda, you need to understand the sentiment to which it’s related.
2004 Elections, Ukraine
Ukraine Underplays Role Far-Right In The Conflict
On 13 December 2004, BBC News publishes an article saying Ukraine and Western countries are denying the presence of far-right groups in the Ukraine 2004 elections and the subsequent revolution. Although the far-right nationist groups are splintered, together they represent a little more than 5% of the political parties taking part in the elections, which is minor yet significant.
-What’s also interesting, I’m realising now, that if you look back in history:
Heraclitus said that a generation takes about thirty years. if you look back thirty years, then we’re in Yugoslavia, the Eastern bloc. At the time there was precisely this sentiment. Just like today, with precisely that sentiment with the Serbians and the Croatians, including the same kind of mythology. With the Croatians fighting on the side of the Nazis, catholic. The Serbians were Russian orthodox – we’ll talk about that in a minute. Or were they Serbian as well as Russian Orthodox. Serbian orthodox. Serbian, right, but allied with Moscow. Part of the orthodoxy…
Putin's Speeches Announcing War
Before the invasion of Ukraine Russian President Vladimir Putin held two keynote speeches preparing the Russian Federation for war
-So in any case there was an old historical bond there?
Yes, firstly the bond with the Serbians whom hey see them as brethren. Right now, in Serbia, you can see people with Russian flags taking to the streets, they support Putin. But what was also the case, other than of that feeling that they themselves were being bombed by the NATO, Was the hypocrisy that they saw. The West was always going on about human rights, international justice, and there, international justice was being violated. Just like it was in Libya and, earlier, in Iraq. That’s why Putin has dragged this all up again, every moment in which the West permitted itself to violate international law, one after the other, and then saying: “Now you’re accusing us of violating international law?”
-Well, isnt that just Putin’s way of attempting to justify his own power play? Lets try to penetrate deeper into what’s actually going on here.
Indeed I believe Putin is far too often dismissed as a cynical, power-hungry tyrant, a cynical KGB who only wants to maintaining power for him and his clique. -And that’s true, he is all those things.
-Yes, he’s unbelievably rich. Unbelievably powerful. He’s got an enormous palace and such. -So that’s beyond dispute.
Yes, it’s beyond dispute, and the corruption and such, that’s also true. But in addition, in his texts and speeches (For example Putin’s 2007 Munich Speech), he attempts to bring forward a vision for modern Russia. That was necessary, of course, because Russia was totally set adrift after the Soviet Union. It collapsed under Yeltsin, it collapsed economically and was plundered by the West and the oligarchs. So he had to find a way to offer a kind of communal ideal to his citizens.
That’s where we come to your area of expertise, he did that by drawing upon the traditions of Eurasian-ism and Tsar-ism and Soviet tradition and modern Russia, and he’s tried to actualise a kind of Russian renaissance with that.
-Yes, I want to get to that in a moment. It’s comparable to the movement you can see happening in China. Especially under Xi, there is this idea to defy western, liberal democratic society. “We’re our own civilisation.” Yes, that’s what it is. It can’t be understood purely in terms of Marxism. We’ve been aware of that for ages, that it’s not Marxism. I mean the difference between our societies is state capitalism.
Right, it’s state capitalism.
-Its a form of governmental organisation that has a huge impact. They seem to draw from their own tradition, from Confucius, for what it’s worth. And there’s is this sense to define their own story, opposing the West. The need to create its own narrative, to prevent perishing in the game of globalisation. Because ultimately in ’89, China squashed the rebellion on Tiananmen Square, which needs to fit its narrative.
-Actually they are saying: “The kind of society they have in the West, democracy, doesn’t suit us – Western Civilization has all kinds of dark sides.
-Perhaps, we ourself are now more aware of these with the difficulties than, lets say 20 years ago.
Yes, and the Russians think the same way, they don’t think democracy is right for them.
-And the idea of the Russian soul
Perhaps it is a good idea to explain what Putin’s “project” entails. Russia sees itself as an independent civilisation, a Eurasian civilisation, part Asian, part European, orthodox and with the almost messianic task. Moscow sees itself as the third iteration of Rome – Rome, Constantinople and then Moscow. The task is to defend the orthodox Christians on this world, that’s what it comes down to. Wthin there is space for multiculturalism, because it is a multi-ethnic society. But the spiritual centrum is Russia.It’s not just Moscow, it’s Russia. The isn’t necessarily an anti-Islam agenda, either. Certainly not, because there are many Muslims living in Russia. Putin has never really instigated conflicts with the Islam. He fought the Chechen rebels, he instigated conflict there, but he’s always respected the Islam. Dugin, for example, is a huge fan of the ayatollahs in Iran, because he completely agrees with them. To us, of course, that’s completely absurd. But he thinks that the theocracy of Iran is absolutely fantastic.
-Right, because that model is an extension
-Anyway, if we go back to looking at history for a moment… That might be useful to help understanding this current conflict because you can see that Christianity is splintered into three large movements. So we saw how relatively quickly, in the Roman empire, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire emerged. We have the Western Roman Empire to thank for our Catholicism. In the Eastern Roman Empire we then see the development of the Neoplatonic tradition.
The heretic part.
-Yes, right, well, who’s the heretic, right? -That’s how they look at it, of course. -It depends on your perspective. To the pope, they’re the heretics. Of course. So there’s a long history there. -Yes, and then there’s also the protestants. -But Kyiv is an important link in that chain. Right, the core. They’re the core. That’s why the Russians can’t stand that Kyiv doesn’t belong to them, or at least, doesn’t belong to the Russian world. Because Kyivska rus, it’s a healing
it’s a birthplace.
Well, it’s intense. Anyone who has come into contact with orthodoxy knows that it’s a totally different world.
Russia's Dominant Religions
Putin's War -
Why is the ukraine war called Putin's war
-I think that plays a role, too. -That little boy. Yes, that boy. He wasn’t just rejected by the West, he was already an outsider back then. He’s essentially taking revenge on everyone, the communist nomenclatural, the Soviet elite, he wasn’t part of them, either. Not even the KGB elite. There are people surrounding him now that had huge careers in the KGB, but Putin was sent to Dresden, I mean, that was the backcountry. It wasn’t really a glorious career for him. So he has a kind of grudge against everyone. I think you can see that being expressed now. But anyway, I am a bit off topic now.
-Well, it is not unimportant. It’s also a question how the dynamics around him will develop.
Yes, we don’t know.
Putin's rise to power
Vladimir Putin - A Russian Spy Story
Vladimir Putin – a Russian Spy Story is the most complete documentary about Vladimir Putin. In three thrilling episodes, it explores President Vladimir Putin’s rise to power. From street kid to spy to shaping modern Russia. Told through Putin’s own words, those that know him and examining those influenced by his actions, this Vladimir Putin series looks at his time with the KGB, his twenty-plus years at the Kremlin and what his lasting legacy might be?
Yes, in my newspaper article I recently argued that what we’re now seeing happen is essentially him trying to instigate a Eurasian empire within the borders of what was previously the Soviet Union. We see that being given shape on the battlefields of Ukraine. Yes, at the moment we’re already in a situation where there’s battles on the outskirts of Kyiv. And we hadn’t really expected that, that Kyiv would be such a target. But if we reconstruct it now, this may just be his life’s mission; to resurrect something of old Russia, including that spiritual centre, perhaps.
-He of course read Alexander Dugin, too. That’s his favorite philosopher. He’s familiar with all of it. Putin reads a lot. A lot of history, a lot of this kind of philosophy.
See, that’s what I’m really afraid of, Dugin said that too, that they’re thinking in terms of eschatology. That they consider this the final battle, the final war against the West. And ‘boom’ (nuclear war). We’ll press the button and see what happens.
-Yes, of course there’s always a danger, we saw that with Hitler as well…
It’s all disputed. There’s a lot of rumors about his health.
Exactly, anything is possible.
-So time is pressing and when time is of the essence, you’re more inclined to make big sacrifices. We saw that with ISIS, t00. If you feel that you have a mission, then a couple thousand, even tens of thousands of people don’t matter much.
Yes, and the comparison to IS is appropriate because we couldn’t understand IS either (we saw them as extremely violent madmen with a completely distorted view of Islam). Even though they themselves said that they were simply following the original texts. “The original Islamic text, that’s what we’re carrying out.” With Putin, we keep thinking that he won’t go that far, etcetera, but if you look at his texts, he’s been heralding everything that we’re seeing now. That’s the subject we started with, too, that we’re limited in our perspective.
-Yes, and then if you look at all the stuff Xi is claiming…
-I mean, the question is what the West will do and what kind of a crisis will come knocking on our door. We may have a common enemy now, but what will happen to the economy? We can’t even agree on the sanctions.
We’re divided amongst ourselves.
Yes, and the big fear is that he indeed sees this as the final battle, that Putin feels he needs to wage the final war against the West. Because, and you can see that in his speeches too, he holds a huge grudge against the west. He also said-
What caused Putin's anti-western enmity
Historical timeline of events leading to the Ukraine war.
In the early 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Putin wasn’t hostile against the West. On the contrary, just after 9/11, Putin was one of the first to call Bush and offer aid. He arranged that the military bases in Central Asia were made accessible to the Americans in order to bomb Afghanistan. There’s a large monument called ‘the Tear of Grief’ by Kremlin’s main sculptor, Tsereteli, made for the Americans to commemorate 9/11. So what happened? See the timeline for a complete overview of all relevant historical events leading to the Ukraine war.
-Do you think things could have gone differently? I can recall that, at the start of the new millennium, that he made some concessions.
Putin's first clear sign
of anti-western sentiment
-I mean, what I briefly said about China, I have some contacts there, mostly students and I notice that the Western lifestyle has enormous repercussions on their lives now. It’s a kind of rearguard action. The question is what is forefront and what is the rearguard. Because we, too, in our postmodernity, are being confronted with all kinds of struggles.
-I reference Castells a lot, who in the nineties already pointed out that globalisation evokes the identity crisis that people are struggling with, being reduced to a function and that fuels certain kinds of fundamentalism. You could say that what we see happening in Russia is related to that struggle.
-You have most likely heard of Mishima, in Japan. After that devastating loss that Japan suffered in the Second World War – Japan, which was entirely modernized and yet ended up in an adventure, the war with the United States, that lead to their complete destruction – And they had to redefine themselves. So after an almost fascist ideology, including an emperor, Japan had to redefine itself. And then of all people Mishima, who was very developed, took back to the culture of the Samurai.
So what are you saying? Is it more than just a personal process.
That’s what people that look at Putin cynically say about him too.
Lot’s of people will say that the comparison between Verbrugge and Duk is totally insane, Putin’s just a KGB, what nonsense…”
-It’s all about power play.
They’re making something off it that isn’t true at all. It’s an invalid viewpoint.
But you can also see it as a form of perversion. That Putin constructed this whole ideology, composed of all these elements from the orthodoxy but also from Soviet culture, the mythologization of the Great Patriotic War. Although it was a big moment, of course, we can also actually say that it’s actually very superficial.
-It’s a kind of desperate attempt. I wouldn’t call it superficial.
No, but there’s a desperation there.
-Yes, it could be a kind of cramp, just like Mishima, except he’s far more strategic. And he’s built up a life which, within the postmodern context that Russia is struggling with at the moment, as all cultures currently are in their own way, has an almost mythical character, which simultaneously, almost like a film, generates a kind of simulacrum, to borrow from Baudrillard. It seems more of a charade.
How Likely Is A Coup?
-What’s also interesting is that simply implementing technology has such repercussions on how you live your life. And there’s so many Western elements built into that. The simple fact that you, as an individual, operate your computer, makes you part of the mob culture, with everything that comes along with it.
-You could say that what we’re seeing now has something to do with that painful conflict. What might be coming out now, embodied by Putin on the one hand and the protesters on the other, is a kind of struggle within the country itself that will generate its own dynamic.
Because as soon as people are getting killed, and once thing become serious people do end up in a different state of mind. We experienced something similar with Covid.
The Power Of The Russian Soul
-Espirit, right, of course. -And for the English? -Uh… humour, perhaps?
-That occurred to me too! -No, but that Russian soul, that’s a reality. And you can tell whatever story you want about it, but every Russian will immediately know what you’re talking about. But, those emotions also make it possible to mobilize people to the point that can rally behind those in power, and justify an invasion such as the one in Ukraine.
-Right, we don’t know how things will play out in the coming weeks. It’s clear that, well, we were talking about the big hammer, well, this is it.
Yes, this is it. -This is a very big hammer that he’s wielding now. A lot of blood is going to be shed It’s all happening very quickly. It could also end up in a bitter civil war, with continuous resistance. Because a moment ago you spoke a bit about Chechnya, that was also, well…Yes, they walked into… well,
Chechnya was a lesson for them. Since then, their armed forces have been modernised and there have been advancements in military technology. they also gained a lot of experience in Syria. That was a success because they managed to keep Assad in charge in Syria They essentially won that war, while we retreated from Afghanistan with our tail between our legs. They’ve seen that footage too. So they’re confident, they know what they’re capable of, what their forces are capable of, so in that sense they’re not afraid of losing the war. What the average Russian is truly afraid of, is that this will result in a military conflict with the West. That’s a fight they won’t win.
-That’s the other side of the story. Because in Dostoevsky you see it too, on the one hand there is this bragging about the Russian soul, but on the other hand he goes to Vienna to gamble.
Right, that’s the ambivalence.
-That’s what they all do. You can see them all doing that. They go gambling or they buy out football clubs.
They’re boundless, truly boundless.
-Yes, I mean look at The Gambler by Dostoevsky. Or Dmitri Karamazov, “Man is broad, too broad, indeed.”
And those rebels in Ukraine that pressed that button that shot the MH17 from the sky. They just weren’t paying attention and caused an international scandal, a trauma for the Netherlands. That’s how unpredictable they can be, so unrestrictive, reckless. And there’s a danger hidden in that, that this war could spread.
-Right, and a kind of reckless abandon, just like they drink their vodka,
-They are playing with their lives. Yes, playing with their lives. Well, that’s what they’re doing now.
That is beautiful and that’s what you see with Putin. Right, that’s what I mean. Yes, incredible. You can see him and almost visually see that cascade. Yes, and then that old history… Wow, we’ve met the Hegelian Putin.
-Well, just to reiterate, we’re trying to understand together what drives Putin, and what the future holds for us.
Yes, it is important for the West to understand this well. This is not just about power. And for the sake of your own people, we need to present a valid narrative to your own people.
I truly blame the west, as happened under COVID, for alienating so much of the populace…
-Right, what we saw happen in Canada…
In Canada it was absolutely horrible. And if you just keep pushing that social liberalist, globalist agenda, as the EU does when such a huge amount of your populace doesn’t want it… you’re almost driving people into Putin’s hands. There are so many people in my Twitter timeline saying, “I would rather have Putin than Rutte (Dutch Prime Minister).” I mean, that’s insane. But it’s the sentiment behind it, people feel so betrayed and unheard that they think. “At least Putin would listen to me.” Just give me the strong man. And the elites just refuse to understand it. It’s incomprehensible, how they’ve totally lost touch with such huge portions of their own people. And of course, someone like Putin takes advantage of that, too. He has his Western fanboys (like Le Pen in France and Thierry Baudet in the Netherlands), and he thinks: “Now is the time to strike.” Yes, a lot has gone wrong in those circles in the past few, well, decades, even.
-We’ll have to talk about that some other time. I want to thank you for this conversation.
-Thank you, Ad.